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The Keyboard/mouse MYTH and it's underlying problems

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Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1329	Posted - 2013.12.29 00:38:00 - [1] - Quote At this current point I see no problem with giving KBM aim assist if they want it. But that is not where the problem lies with KBM, instead it lies with input method. DS3 is analogue, this means the resistance allows voltage changes to represent a change in strength/magnitude of an action. Sometimes to great effect. KBM uses digital input, you are always maximum one way or maximum the other. This allows for what I like to call the texan 2 step, which is the rapid strafing with in a confined area. Now before 1.4, before Aim Assist and Hit detection fixes, it was possibly to texan 2 step THROUGH bullets. You would literally do a matrix. Now CCP tried to alleviate this with aim assisst and kbm emulating controller input, and to a large degree it has worked. But that is why KBM used to be OP, why you can't have raw input and why so many of the vet kbm users believe kbm to be inferior. Because CCP fixed a problem. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1331	Posted - 2013.12.29 00:55:00 - [2] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Because CCP fixed a problem. Before AA KB/M had handicaps to help out DS3 users. Now KB/M oesnt have handicapps but DS3 has an aim assist that does not require you to aim for your sights to stay on target and even if they are off you still hit with bullet magnetism. Bullet Magnetism? You mean Aim Assit curves bullets? The old KBM handicaps were unfair on KBM users, they were applied above and beyond the suit rotation limiters. This meant that KBM could never spin any faster than 80 DS3 sensitivity, which as handicap is pretty poor. It also didn't solve the texan 2 step, whic was incredibly prelevant back then. The handicaps didn't solve anything. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1333	Posted - 2013.12.29 01:26:00 - [3] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Bullet Magnetism? You mean Aim Assit curves bullets? Yes. Although not "as extreme", bullet magnetism is still present in Dust 514. The first day of AA you could shoot right next to the target and still hit him as if you where aiming right at his face. Now it's less but still present. Enough so that if you look closely at recent footage you can notice it and if you test it you can see it for yourself ^^. You realise that its hit detection, don't you? Also good job at skirting my main point. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1334	Posted - 2013.12.29 02:23:00 - [4] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Bullet Magnetism? You mean Aim Assit curves bullets? Yes. Although not "as extreme", bullet magnetism is still present in Dust 514. The first day of AA you could shoot right next to the target and still hit him as if you where aiming right at his face. Now it's less but still present. Enough so that if you look closely at recent footage you can notice it and if you test it you can see it for yourself ^^. You realise that its hit detection, don't you? Also good job at skirting my main point. Stop with this hit detection crap Monkey. It isn't even close to that being the issue. We have had good Hit detection. We have had Aim assist like this in dust. Guess what the problem was then? Aim assist... The entire community at that time mostly hand picked by CCP(for gamer credentials) or actually payed to play DUST beta... knew this..its was a giant community protest AGAINST aim assist. still this problem will always happen in DUST with Aim assist...always will be the problem and no matter how much you don't feel like you should have to Aim in a FPS..... or that not having to worry about aiming makes this a tactical shooter...This game suffers, every time we cater to this lazy idea players have at playing a FPS, DUST takes a hit. Games are not supposed to be easy... and Casual's don't expect games to be easy. If everyone was dieing to bullets that are actually aim'ed by that player... then TKK is not an issue in anyway... all the OP weapons complained about are no longer OP.... its player skill. But everyone praising Aim assist wants DUST to be a game where everyone hides behind boxes... All we have is a giant cowards game right now everytime a new player leaves a box 3 new players lock on with aim assist and hes dead in half a second.. So we just have a bunch of new players cowering behind the very few boxes and structures in DUST... and we have lost any challenge... and any real sense of achievement that made DUST magical in the moment to moment gameplay. Heh heh, you mean the aim assisst that was released the exact same time significant hit detection improvements were made? Do you realise how much extra code would have to go into bullet magnetism? You would have to create an algorithm that physically causes the hitscan function to change direction based on the enemy movement (thats hitscan, different from aim), then to hit behind walls would require the hit scan to change trajectory mid-flight. Which is impossible to do because a hitscan is instantaneous. What you are observing is the warping of the hit detection box under lagged conditions. The hit detection box physically trails the user, in an attempt to compensate for lag between the hitscan being called and the hitscan actually acting its method. Stutter Stepping, Chop Strafing call it what you like, it can't be done on a standard DS3 contoller due to its analogue input medium. To stutter strafe requires the user to rapidly switch between left and right on the joystick, this causes acceleration. A physical delay between moving in different directions stops stutter strafing working on the joystick, instead you get a rather lazy sway. With a Kbm you use a digital input, there is no acceleration. There is no delay to change in direction, it is completely seamless, this results in the KBM user rapidly shifting direction, sometimes so fast some older games couldn't physically keep up. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1337	Posted - 2013.12.29 02:53:00 - [5] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Bethhy wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Yes. Although not "as extreme", bullet magnetism is still present in Dust 514. The first day of AA you could shoot right next to the target and still hit him as if you where aiming right at his face. Now it's less but still present. Enough so that if you look closely at recent footage you can notice it and if you test it you can see it for yourself ^^. You realise that its hit detection, don't you? Also good job at skirting my main point. Stop with this hit detection crap Monkey. It isn't even close to that being the issue. We have had good Hit detection. We have had Aim assist like this in dust. Guess what the problem was then? Aim assist... The entire community at that time mostly hand picked by CCP(for gamer credentials) or actually payed to play DUST beta... knew this..its was a giant community protest AGAINST aim assist. still this problem will always happen in DUST with Aim assist...always will be the problem and no matter how much you don't feel like you should have to Aim in a FPS..... or that not having to worry about aiming makes this a tactical shooter...This game suffers, every time we cater to this lazy idea players have at playing a FPS, DUST takes a hit. Games are not supposed to be easy... and Casual's don't expect games to be easy. If everyone was dieing to bullets that are actually aim'ed by that player... then TKK is not an issue in anyway... all the OP weapons complained about are no longer OP.... its player skill. But everyone praising Aim assist wants DUST to be a game where everyone hides behind boxes... All we have is a giant cowards game right now everytime a new player leaves a box 3 new players lock on with aim assist and hes dead in half a second.. So we just have a bunch of new players cowering behind the very few boxes and structures in DUST... and we have lost any challenge... and any real sense of achievement that made DUST magical in the moment to moment gameplay. Stutter Stepping, Chop Strafing call it what you like, it can't be done on a standard DS3 contoller due to its analogue input medium. To stutter strafe requires the user to rapidly switch between left and right on the joystick, this causes acceleration. A physical delay between moving in different directions stops stutter strafing working on the joystick, instead you get a rather lazy sway. ????????????????????????????????????????? AHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH so you really are just that... ahahahahah You really don't know a thing about what your talking about. And even worse you have no idea about DUST... Aim assist was the 1.4 patch in September. Hit detection revamps was done in 1.5. And one day you will get stutter stepping.. and its a very real skill in DUST. The absolute bullshit you spew over and over to defend your will to not actually aim for yourself... to the point where you want to give keyboard and mouse aim assist is sick... GO play checkers you hurt this community and the game. Yes of course because the guy who went to university and did coursework on input methods and their pros and cons in games for his computer games module is wrong. My sincerest Apologies o All knowing master! The OP said he doesn't understand why KBM doesn't have Aim Assist, there is no reason why it can't? Oh and here are the patch notes for 1.4 notice the 'EVEN MORE HIT DETECTION IMPROVEMENTS' 1.4 Patch notes And finally you may call it rubbish but I can explain what you blindly believe to be false. Its like playing chess with a pigeon, no matter what logic I use, no matter what tactics I use, in the end the pigeon will **** on the board, knock over a few pieces and strut around like owns the place. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1339	Posted - 2013.12.29 02:59:00 - [6] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Bethhy wrote: ????????????????????????????????????????? AHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH so you really are just that... ahahahahah You really don't know a thing about what your talking about. And even worse you have no idea about DUST... Aim assist was the 1.4 patch in September. Hit detection revamps was done in 1.5. And one day you will get stutter stepping.. and its a very real skill in DUST. The absolute bullshit you spew over and over to defend your will to not actually aim for yourself... to the point where you want to give keyboard and mouse aim assist is sick... GO play checkers you hurt this community and the game. Mind sourcing your hit detection revamps being 1.5 and not 1.4? I looked here(1.4) and here(1.5) but I only see hit detection fixes in 1.4 Also as far as I remember the aim assists and hit detection fixes came in the same patch, and that is why everyone for the first 1-2 months was saying that it was the combination of both that was causing the horrendous TTK. Then 1.6 came with even further hit detection fixes and TTK has bottomed out. Magnus, your 1.6 link, links to 1.5 again. Bethy wrote: You really don't know a thing about what your talking about. And even worse you have no idea about DUST... Aim assist was the 1.4 patch in September. Hit detection revamps was done in 1.5. Sorry What was that? Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1339	Posted - 2013.12.29 03:09:00 - [7] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Bethhy wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Bethhy wrote: Stop with this hit detection crap Monkey. It isn't even close to that being the issue. We have had good Hit detection. We have had Aim assist like this in dust. Guess what the problem was then? Aim assist... The entire community at that time mostly hand picked by CCP(for gamer credentials) or actually payed to play DUST beta... knew this..its was a giant community protest AGAINST aim assist. still this problem will always happen in DUST with Aim assist...always will be the problem and no matter how much you don't feel like you should have to Aim in a FPS..... or that not having to worry about aiming makes this a tactical shooter...This game suffers, every time we cater to this lazy idea players have at playing a FPS, DUST takes a hit. Games are not supposed to be easy... and Casual's don't expect games to be easy. If everyone was dieing to bullets that are actually aim'ed by that player... then TKK is not an issue in anyway... all the OP weapons complained about are no longer OP.... its player skill. But everyone praising Aim assist wants DUST to be a game where everyone hides behind boxes... All we have is a giant cowards game right now everytime a new player leaves a box 3 new players lock on with aim assist and hes dead in half a second.. So we just have a bunch of new players cowering behind the very few boxes and structures in DUST... and we have lost any challenge... and any real sense of achievement that made DUST magical in the moment to moment gameplay. Stutter Stepping, Chop Strafing call it what you like, it can't be done on a standard DS3 contoller due to its analogue input medium. To stutter strafe requires the user to rapidly switch between left and right on the joystick, this causes acceleration. A physical delay between moving in different directions stops stutter strafing working on the joystick, instead you get a rather lazy sway. ????????????????????????????????????????? AHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH so you really are just that... ahahahahah You really don't know a thing about what your talking about. And even worse you have no idea about DUST... Aim assist was the 1.4 patch in September. Hit detection revamps was done in 1.5. And one day you will get stutter stepping.. and its a very real skill in DUST. The absolute bullshit you spew over and over to defend your will to not actually aim for yourself... to the point where you want to give keyboard and mouse aim assist is sick... GO play checkers you hurt this community and the game. Yes of course because the guy who went to university and did coursework on input methods and their pros and cons in games for his computer games module is wrong. My sincerest Apologies o All knowing master! The OP said he doesn't understand why KBM doesn't have Aim Assist, there is no reason why it can't? Oh and here are the patch notes for 1.4 notice the 'EVEN MORE HIT DETECTION IMPROVEMENTS' 1.4 Patch notes And finally you may call it rubbish but I can explain what you blindly believe to be false. Its like playing chess with a pigeon, no matter what logic I use, no matter what tactics I use, in the end the pigeon will **** on the board, knock over a few pieces and strut around like owns the place. Read the forums hit detection was ABYSMAL in 1.4 ask anyone check the history of the forum rants... you just have to actually know whats going on in DUST. "Dat Hit detection" didnt even start entering peoples profiles on PSN until 1.5 because hit detection sucked... we all thought aim assist was the band aid for hit detection. EVERYONE. and most said CCP would band aid hit detection. You can goto school; and assume some professor will tell you the pros and cons and teach you how to competitively play a FPS on a gamepad with stutter stepping... or the FACT that it is USED and actively taught... in DUST... and some of the best in the game know and use it... then you say it doesn't exist? Welcome to the thing used since chromosome that apparently is impossible.??????????? clueless much. Stutter stepping is fact in DUST no matter what your teacher told you. Yet again even discussing a keyboard and mouse having aim assist should make you throw up in your mouth a little... The fact that players are buying a 60 dollar peice of hardware and actively using a Aim assist on the keyboard and mouse should leave you outraged as a FPS player... Instead we get this response for 3 months from you monkey "there is no problem everything is ok because my teacher told me so" FML .......... I love how your argument against me has absolutely no logic in it. I have attempted to educate you as I have been, but like the pigeon you ignore fact and logic. Because you say it is, it must be so. If the OP wants Aim Assist let him have, if you realy are as elite as you say you are, you would understand the need for a condensed skill base, you would welcome the challenge of going against aim assissted players, without aim assisst. Edit: CEOPyrex complaing about Aim Assist and Hit detection. http://youtu.be/6QI4wmuzjmU Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1339	Posted - 2013.12.29 03:22:00 - [8] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Because you say it is, it must be so. If the OP wants Aim Assist let him have, if you realy are as elite as you say you are, you would understand the need for a condensed skill base, you would welcome the challenge of going against aim assissted players, without aim assisst. OP thinks AA is OP hence it should either be eliminated or toned way further than it actually is. OP also thinks and states with his original post that the community usually likes to talk a lot and ask for nerfs and changes to things they don't understand and that has led to the current lopsided mechanics that exist in dust 514 Nice quick change routine. Quote: Well it's like I said. People say KB/M is better for shooters in general because of aim assist. Here you orginally said that KBM is only believed to be superior because you said PC games have aim assisst on them. You cited that as the reason why KBM is inferior on DUST, that if the DS3 should have aim assisst so to should KBM, that was your pre edit OP. But never mind, Pigeon, Chessboard and all that jazz! Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1

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